Transcript E&OE
22 October 2009
Interview with ABC Radio National, Fran Kelly
Subject: People-smuggling, Cooperation with Indonesia, Afghanistan
FRAN KELLY: Well Foreign Minister Stephen Smith was in Jakarta with the PM - that meeting with the Indonesian President - and he's also been touring the earthquake-driven areas of Padang in Indonesia.
In fact he's just arrived back in Canberra in the wee hours of this morning, and he's up early to talk to us in our Parliament House studio.
Stephen Smith, good morning.
STEPHEN SMITH: Good morning Fran.
FRAN KELLY: Minister, where are the 78 Sri Lankans currently onboard the Oceanic Viking, where are they, or more importantly, when are they expected to arrive in Indonesia?
STEPHEN SMITH: That will be an operational matter which Customs and Border Protection and the Indonesian authorities sort out. We expect that will be in the course of the day. But there are the usual port clearances issues to be attended to.
The undertaking, the agreement between Australia and Indonesia, between President Yudhoyono and the Prime Minister, was that Indonesia would take this boat, would take the people off the Oceanic Viking. That was as a result of a combination of both safety at sea issues and humanitarian issues.
But the Oceanic Viking is a very large vessel so there are porting and clearance issues, and that's ongoing.
But the substantive key thing here is the people on board the Oceanic Viking are safe, and that is what drove this issue, the safety of people on the high seas.
FRAN KELLY: In terms of their safety, can you confirm for us reports that some of the asylum seekers sabotaged the boat they were on - these people aboard the Oceanic Viking now - perhaps drilled holes in the vessel?
STEPHEN SMITH: Well again Fran I think it's very important in all of these matters to take things very carefully and step by step.
We received calls suggesting people were in distress on the high seas. It was in the Indonesian search and rescue area. The Indonesians advised us that they didn't have any assets nearby and could we help. We checked whether there were any commercial boats nearby, there weren't. HMAS Armidale was the closest. When HMAS Armidale got there, a conclusion was reached that the boat wasn't in a fit position to get to port, and that's why they were transported to the Oceanic Viking.
FRAN KELLY: But do we know whether it wasn't in a fit position because these people tried to disable the boat?
STEPHEN SMITH: We regard this as an operational matter. We haven't had a report, a final report, because it's still ongoing, from either Customs and Border Protection. That will be attended to in the usual way once the 78 have been safely offloaded in Indonesia.
But I have seen these suggestions this morning. The highest I have seen anything underlying that has been inverted commas sources, no detail or any suggestion of that nature.
I'm not leaping to conclusions. I'm not making any judgements, and I don't think other people should. We will get an exhaustive report in the usual way from Customs and Border Protection, from people presumably on HMAS Armidale and also from the Oceanic Viking. We can make judgements then.
But, I make this point: it is very important for Australia to discharge its humanitarian and its search, rescue and safety at sea obligations. When we get a distress call we have an obligation to help. It's an obligation in international law. It's also a moral and a humanitarian obligation.
So faced with precisely the same circumstances we would do exactly what we did again. In other words we would go to the assistance of people at sea whom we were told were in distress and there was no other avenue of assistance for them…
FRAN KELLY: What about…
STEPHEN SMITH: …and we did that at the request of the Indonesian authorities.
FRAN KELLY: And the Indonesians are taking them. Did Australia pressure Indonesia to accept these 78 asylum seekers?
STEPHEN SMITH: No, absolutely not. I mean the discussion between President Yudhoyono and Prime Minister Rudd had a very firm basis to that conversation which was there was no obligation on the part of Indonesia to take these people. I think that explains some of the unnamed or unsourced comments we've seen from the Indonesian officials. They have been making the point substantively that there was no obligation and is no obligation on the part of Indonesia to take these people.
That is why the President has couched it very much in terms of humanitarian and safety at sea.
And I regard this very much as a one-off. It is qualitatively different from the large vessel, or the vessel containing a large number of Sri Lankans who are now in Merak. That was in Indonesian waters, and intercepted and interdicted within Indonesian waters.
This took place outside of Indonesian waters, and there was never a suggestion by us that there was a legal obligation on the part of Indonesia to take them.
So this was done as a matter of agreement between two nations, between a President and a Prime Minister. I discussed the matter as well with my Indonesian counterpart, Foreign Minister Wirajuda, and our officials discussed it with Indonesian officials.
In the end, we believed that the best thing to do was for these people to be off loaded in Indonesia. That was done on the basis of the humanitarian view that when safety at sea issues are in play, we have to firstly make sure that we render assistance when we're in a position to render assistance, and then find the best way of dealing with the people once they've been rescued. And that's what we've done.
FRAN KELLY: Well if this is a one-off with this ship, what about the broader framework, the regional solution that the PM went to nut out with President Yudhoyono? The PM acknowledges there will be a cost to it. Australia will have to pay Indonesia to do more to intercept and process. Can you confirm that there is a price per head, a price per asylum seeker, incentive payments being offered?
STEPHEN SMITH: What was agreed between Australia and Indonesia, and what both President Yudhoyono and the Prime Minister and I have said, is that we have agreed that we have to do more on the people smuggling and people movement front.
Now we have in existence between Australia and Indonesia the Lombok Treaty which came into force when Hassan Wirajuda, the Indonesian Foreign Minister, and I signed it in Perth in February of 2008. That sets the scene for the modern relationship. It includes references to border protection, people smuggling and people movement. So, what we do we do under the Lombok Treaty framework.
We also have the Bali Process, which is co-chaired between Australia and Indonesia, where countries in the region get together to deal with these matters. What's been…
FRAN KELLY: So all that's in place already, so what's been agreed? What extra?
STEPHEN SMITH: What's been agreed is that we know we are facing additional difficulties. We know we are facing additional push factors. We know as well that the people smugglers are using enhanced and different techniques. We have to work together to combat those, and we have agreed that our officials will get together to see what more we can do, with a view to the Prime Minister and President Yudhoyono formally agreeing further measures.
Now…
FRAN KELLY: So no price tag on the table yet?
STEPHEN SMITH: We already make a considerable contribution to the Indonesian Government, to the UNHCR, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, and the International Organisation for Migration for the detention, for the processing, and for the settlement and resettlement of asylum seekers in Indonesia.
And I don't think that we should categorise or characterise that in any way as a per diem or a bounty or any such pejorative terms.
This is a regional problem. It involves not just Australia, not just Indonesia, but other countries in our region including Malaysia. And we have to work together, particularly now that we know we face these very significant additional push factors from Sir Lanka.
FRAN KELLY: Okay.
STEPHEN SMITH: We have to work very closely together.
The Howard Government worked out far too late that unless it was working closely with Indonesia and other countries in our region, the boats would continue to come. And that's why we have invested very much of our time, effort and energy methodically working cooperatively with Indonesia and other countries in the region. We had meetings with the Prime Ministers of both Singapore and Malaysia when we were in Indonesia and we dealt with these matters as well.
FRAN KELLY: kay Minister. It's 10 to eight on RN Breakfast. We are joined by Foreign Minister Stephen Smith.
Just a couple of minutes left Minister. Can I ask you about Afghanistan, the decision that there will be a second run-off election. We now face a situation where President Karzai is likely to be re-elected, but his legitimacy is shot to pieces isn't it? I mean how can we deal with a President who cheated…
STEPHEN SMITH: Well, first…
FRAN KELLY: …so enormously cheated?
STEPHEN SMITH: …well firstly we've got a run-off, so I don't anticipate or predict the outcome of that run-off. That's the first point.
Secondly, we were very pleased that the processes put in place, backed up by the UN, worked. The processes of the Afghan Election Complaints Commission and the Election Commission itself. And we also welcomed the fact that President Karzai and Abdullah Abdullah, the other main candidate, have agreed to the processes. So we welcome that.
I made the point before the first round run-off and after, and very happy to do it again, that whoever emerges from this process, whether it is President Karzai or Abdullah Abdullah, Australia and the international community will look to significant improvement on the governmental front in Afghanistan. We need to see the Government in Kabul doing much more and making much greater progress on a whole range of issues, and that'll be the challenge for whoever the Government is.
And we will play our role in the second round run-off, as we did in the first.
FRAN KELLY: nd just very briefly Minister, how can we expect the second poll to be free and fair? Clearly those processes didn't work adequately.
STEPHEN SMITH: Clearly everyone has learned from the first round processes. It's quite clearly the case that the Election Complaints Commission is suggesting a range of mechanisms to the Afghan Election Commission itself.
The UN Secretary General Special Representative Kai Eide is very closely and very heavily involved, and that's a good thing.
So clearly everyone will learn from this example. The key thing is that those processes put in place in very difficult circumstances where you're trying to conduct an election; where in some substantial parts of Afghanistan, we're effectively trying to conduct it in war-like conditions or war conditions. These are very difficult circumstances, but the processes have been effected and now we obviously look forward to a much better outcome so far as the second round is concerned.
FRAN KELLY: Stephen Smith, thank you very much for joining us on Breakfast.
STEPHEN SMITH: Thanks Fran. Thanks very much.
FRAN KELLY: Foreign Minister Stephen Smith, who's just back from having a look first hand at the earthquake devastation in Padang in Indonesia.
[ENDS]
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