Transcript, E&OE
6 August 2009
Joint Doorstop Press Conference with Indonesian Minister for Foreign Affairs Dr Hassan Wirajuda, Cairns
Subjects: Pacific Islands Forum, Australia-Indonesia relations, Counter-terrorism cooperation.
MR SMITH: Can I officially welcome Indonesia's Foreign Minister, Hassan Wirajuda, to Cairns. This is the fourth meeting we've had in four different cities over the last four weeks. But Hassan, as always, a great pleasure to welcome you to Australia.
Hassan is here to take part in tomorrow's Post Forum Dialogue. The Pacific Islands Forum, of course, concludes today with the Leaders' retreat . But tomorrow we have the Post-Forum Dialogue, where partners and friends and neighbours of the Pacific attend in conjunction with the Forum members.
Tomorrow we're making a particular point of looking at development assistance. Australia, of course, together with New Zealand, are large development donors in the Pacific. We're not the only ones. The European Union and France are other examples and, of course, the international institutions like the Asian Development Bank and the World Bank itself. And so tomorrow we want to get a focus on development assistance co-ordination and development assistance effectiveness.
We're very pleased that Hassan has joined us because Indonesia, of course, is Australia's largest single development assistance partner, and we think that Indonesia will have its own view and its own contribution to make at our Post-Forum Dialogue. But the focus tomorrow will be on co-ordinating our development assistance and measuring its effectiveness.
Hassan and I, of course, have taken the opportunity of just having a brief bilateral meeting about relations between Australia and Indonesia which, of course, continue to be at an all time high. We've spoken about the aftermath of the bombings in Jakarta and also I've briefed Hassan in a preliminary way on recent events in Melbourne in the last 24 - 48 hours.
But we are Foreign Ministers at a time when the relationship between Indonesia and Australia could not be better, and as he and I have both said publicly and privately, the only dangers are complacency and surprise. And these days we meet so regularly that there's no complacency and there's certainly no surprise.
But, Hassan, your presence at the Post-Forum Dialogue will certainly add to its standing so we welcome that very much. Indonesia, of course, has very many friends in the Pacific. Australia is one of them, and I know the colleagues are looking very much forward to seeing you tomorrow and to listening to your contribution, so I'd be pleased if you could make some remarks and then we'll do our best to answer your questions.
DR WIRAJUDA: Thank you, Stephen, colleagues. I'm pleased to be here in Cairns to participate at the post-summit dialogues. Indonesia has been dialogue partner to the PIF since the year 2000 and we are pleased to see Australia is now assuming the Chairmanship of the PIF for the next few years. We do appreciate the important role that Australia has been playing in the Pacific Island Forum, including the role of Australia as the prime mover on development cooperation in these regions.
Certainly, as an important recipients of Australia's development programs I would be very pleased to share with colleagues at the post-summit dialogue tomorrow our experience, including success story in our development cooperation.
As Stephen has just said, we meet very often, and [it] was in Jakarta on 18 July that Foreign Minister Stephen Smith sat with us. That was one day after the bombings at the Marriott Hotel and the Ritz-Carlton Hotel in Jakarta. Of course, I wish to express once again our condolence and sympathy to the Government and people of Australia, in particular to the families of the victims in those terrorist incidents.
We have been working very successfully in promoting our bilateral cooperation on counter-terrorism, and it is [that] part of our bilateral cooperation ... which I would say started in February 2002, months before the first Bali bombing of 12 October 2002.
It provides us a good legal basis in our cooperation. Of course, it's part of our commitment and we also feel we owe to the victims of those terrorist attacks, including the last one in Jakarta, that we have to bring the perpetrators to justice, as we [have] in the past incidents.
Terrorism here is a real threat to our countries, to our regions, but also to the whole world and I'm grateful that the Foreign Minister of Australia has briefed me in our bilateral talks today on the recent arrests made by the Australian Federal Police on the impending terrorist attacks in Australia, which made us even a stronger resolve to work closer together to combat terrorism.
We discussed also other issues of importance to Australia and Indonesia and, namely the issue of people smuggling, the regular trafficking in persons. We hosted last April the regional conference on illegal migrants and trafficking in persons in Bali, the third meeting actually, third regular meeting.
The first one and the second one were also held in Bali and this regional meeting is the initiative of Australia and Indonesia. So we are working very closely and looking at the success that we obtain in early 2000s. We believe that the cooperation involving the countries of origins, countries of transits and countries of the nations are the key to success in our efforts to combat irregular migrants or trafficking in persons.
Of course ... I wish to confer our regrets to - and condolences as well - to the Australians' family in which their beloved member was killed at the incident in Timika. It's purely criminal act and our police continues to investigate. Police has made some arrests and we believe that, again, the perpetrators of these crimes will be brought to justice.
I think as Stephen has just said, we have many significant problems - but we have developed by now a very good habit of dialogue and consultations, not only issues of relevant concern to Australia and Indonesia, but also on regional issues of importance to our region. And here. in this case, that's why we do appreciate the leading role that Australia has been playing within the Pacific Island Forum.
STEPHEN SMITH: Thanks, Hassan. Can I thank you for your expression of condolence to the family of Drew Grant who was murdered recently. And also again thank you for the cooperation between Indonesian police and Australian Federal Police in the aftermath of that terrible murder.
We're happy to respond to your questions.
QUESTION: Foreign Minister, given what's happened in recent weeks in Indonesia with the bombings in Jakarta, and the arrests this week in Melbourne, how long do you think it will be before terrorists are successful in carrying out a strike on Australian soil?
HASSAN WIRAJUDA: I believe that the two are not connected [... ] groups connected to different groups outside. In our case, we still and we strongly believe that the terrorist bombings at the Marriott and Carl... Ritz-Carlton hotels were part of the Jemaah Islamiyah group.
Even these two weeks or 10 days before the Marriott and Ritz-Carlton hotels bombing, our police arrested members of the Jemaah Islamiyah groups - not only of Indonesian nationals but also of Singaporean nationals. Our police are still hunting the main group leader, Noordin Muhammad Top - Malaysian nationals. I think we make progress, but [during] a few raids that our national police conducted Noordin Muhammad Top was able to fight arrest.
But we are not working on the police and intelligence works only. But we believe that in long term, efforts to empower the moderates and strengthen their [indistinct] are also important. Because at the same time this would limit the areas for radical, extremist work and that's what we have been doing in Indonesia.
As the arrest that Australian Federal Police has just made which may be conducted by, as I said, by different groups that we have in Indonesia or in the region of South-East Asia. Chains of information are very important, so then we have a better picture, better maps of the operations of the various groups in our regions of Asia and Pacific.
QUESTION: Minister, your understanding that you say you don't see any connection between the events in Melbourne and the bombings in Jakarta. Are you quite sure that there are no international links between JI and the Somalia group blamed for the organisation of the attempted Australian bombings or might there be links between JI and that organisation?
HASSAN WIRAJUDA: I believe that they are not directly connected between these two, but they might be connected at the top, you know. There's something that - that's why I see the importance of chains of information, including intelligence information, for us to know the bigger picture of the nature of the operations in our regions.
QUESTION: So with that in mind what assistance can Indonesian authorities give Australians in their inquiry into this matter, and has any assistance been forthcoming yet?
HASSAN WIRAJUDA: I think, on our part, we have been working very closely with the Australian Federal Police, not only in sharing information, including intelligence information but even on joint operations. What's new perhaps for our police, is what's happened here. Because of the events in Indonesia, we have developed a very good practice of sharing. And I think on the movements of various groups in regions of South-East Asia, I believe that the Australian Federal Police and intelligence have been following very closely.
STEPHEN SMITH: Can I just add to some of Hassan's remarks? Firstly, for all of the obvious reasons, I need to be careful about what I say about these alleged offences, because there may well be proceedings that arise as a consequence of the arrest and detentions.
But Hassan has made a number of points that the Prime Minister and I have previously made. Firstly, we do need to understand that the terrorist threat to Australia, it's not just to Australians overseas but also to Australians living and working in Australia itself. And since September 11, the threat assessment for terrorist activity in Australia has been at the medium level, which indicates some degree of risk.
Secondly, whilst I'm not aware of any direct assistance on this particular investigation, it is the case that Australian and Indonesian police and Australian and Indonesian authorities work very, very closely and cooperate very, very well on counter-terrorism matters, and that should continue.
The third point, which is, if you like, my direct response to your first question. Whilst we don't and aren't aware, to the best of my knowledge, of any direct contact between particular groups, we know that just as governments speak to each other, so terrorist groups make contact with each other internationally. Which is why we need to have a seamless exchange of information - which we do - and why we always need to be aware of what we discover, in the course of our own enquiries.
Again, [I] make the point that the risk to Australia and Australians of terrorism is not geographically restricted. It's not geographically restricted to South-East Asia. It's not geographically restricted to the Afghanistan-Pakistan border. There are other areas of risk - Somalia is obviously one. And there are other parts of the world where there is a risk of terrorist activity or a risk of a particular location becoming a breeding ground of international terrorism.
And that's why Australia, as a government, communicates seamlessly with Indonesia because of threats is in South-East Asia, but we do also with other governments as well.
QUESTION: Foreign Minister, after the original attacks, the original bombings in Jakarta, there was a very extensive network rounded up by Indonesian police, with some Australian help. After the latest bombings, it was suggested that this was just remnants or a splinter group, or young people emulating or copying the others. Have you now reached any conclusions about how extensive the organisation was that carried out the latest bombings? Is it just a splinter group?
HASSAN WIRAJUDA: We haven't reached final conclusions since the police are still continuing their investigations, but what follows is that the perpetrators of the recent Jakarta bombing were members of the same groups. Perhaps splinter, smaller groups. But they are, we believe, part of the group which, following the killing of Dr Azhari some years ago by our police, the group is led now by Noordin Muhammad Top. This is what we know right now.
QUESTION: [Indistinct]
STEPHEN SMITH: Yep.
QUESTION: Following on from Noordin Muhammad Top, how dangerous do you think he is, and how soon [indistinct]...
HASSAN WIRAJUDA: Certainly, [he] is very dangerous. He is an expert in recruiting members. His ability is to influence others, but also as he is one of the graduates from Afghanistan. He is also an expert in bomb making. Actually, before the recent Jakarta bombing, our police raided some homes - houses in Central Java and we were pretty close to arrest Noordin Muhammad Top.
Recently, post-Marriott Hotel/Ritz-Carlton bombings, police arrested a lady - a housewife - which initially rejected that she knew Noordin Muhammad Top, because she never knew that her husband is Noordin Muhammad Top. We knew it because when the police showed her a picture of Noordin, then [she] said, "yes, that's my husband". So - and the police raided the house where the wife [was]- and Noordin was actually there. So that's why I said we were pretty close to arresting these terrorists before Jakarta bombing.
QUESTION: Minister, just one last question, if I might. How close are your two governments to formalising a prisoner transfer treaty, and if we're not close, given how many years it has been in the pipeline, shouldn't Australians and Indonesians conclude it's not going to happen?
STEPHEN SMITH: We certainly should not conclude that it's not going to happen. We continue to discuss and negotiate this matter at officials level.
QUESTION: Are you closer, Minister?
STEPHEN SMITH: We continue to discuss and negotiate this matter. It would be in Australia's view a good thing to occur, and we are working to try and achieve that objective. I put no timetable on it, but I certainly do not rule out it occurring.
QUESTION: Foreign Minister, your take - your thoughts on prisoner transfer?
HASSAN WIRAJUDA: Frankly, to Indonesia, this is new mechanisms. We do not have any bilateral transfer of prisoners agreements with any country. That's why the first thing that we do together with Australia is to organise workshops a few months ago for our officials to know what all these transport prisoners' agreements [are] all about. Because now we have also some requests from countries like France, and I believe Hong Kong is also exploring.
On my part, certainly, I explained to my countrymen, but this is something, a mechanism that is positive, not only for Australia to get their citizen back after serving a few years in Indonesian prisons, but also for Indonesians to get back our Indonesian national who are in prisons in Australia.
So this is a mechanism that is well recognised, but as a process. Don't say only as outcome, as a process, something that we need to disseminate for our people to understand that - not to see the problem only from the perspective of Bali Nine or whatever case that you are concerned to hear in Australia.
STEPHEN SMITH: All right, thanks very much. Thanks everyone.
[ENDS]
Media inquiries
Foreign Minister's office (02) 6277 7500