Transcript: E&OE
23 July 2009
Interview: ABC TV, Lateline with Leigh Sales, from Phuket, Thailand
Topics: Nigel Brennan, Stern Hu, ASEAN conference and Iran's nuclear program.
LEIGH SALES: Well, as we reported earlier a Queensland family has broken its silence about the kidnapping of photojournalist Nigel Brennan, who's now been held hostage in Somalia for eleven months. To discuss that case I was joined a short time ago from Phuket in Thailand by the Foreign Minister, Stephen Smith. Minister, the mother of Nigel Brennan spoke publicly for the first time that the family is concerned no progress is being made. What do you think of their decision to go to the media?
STEPHEN SMITH: Firstly, I understand very much their frustration and the agony of the mother who hasn't seen her son for nearly a year, who is kidnapped in a place like Somalia, a stateless and lawless society, virtually. Our advice has always been not to go public, not to go to the media, not to raise this in an environment that we think the kidnappers can take advantage of. And that's been all the advice and experience from other kidnapping cases from other countries that we've consulted. In the end it's a matter for the family and I'm absolutely not going to be critical of anything they have done or said given the pressure they are under. But we'll continue to give them all the assistance we can and continue to do everything that we can to try to get his release.
LEIGH SALES: Does what you say mean that you think that the decision the family has taken is contrary to Nigel Brennan's best interests?
STEPHEN SMITH: Our advice has been that we don't believe on the basis of the experience from other countries and other cases, that raising publicity helps. The kidnappers prey on the publicity and prey on the families. In the end it's a matter for the family to make their own judgment. We can give them all the advice in the world - our best collective experience and our best collective advice, but they are making judgments and decisions in the pain and the agony of a son who has been, a son or a brother who has been, missing kidnapped for 11 months. So I am not going to say anything which anyone could imply, or perceive, or say was expressly a criticism of the family. Our hearts go out to them in what is a terrible and difficult situation. But our substantial problem and the family's problem remains as it has been from day one - that Nigel went to Somalia, he was kidnapped, and the history and the experience of kidnappings in Somalia is long periods of time kidnapped and in the end substantial sums of money generally required to effect a release.
LEIGH SALES: As I said earlier, the family is concerned that no progress is made under the Government's current strategy. Are they right or wrong?
STEPHEN SMITH: Well, from the family's perspective, I suppose progress would be his release. We believe we have been pursuing a strategy which provides the best option, the best chance, of wearing the kidnappers down and ultimately seeing his release. But have we suggested or anyone suggested from day one or throughout, you know, a long and difficult process, that there was a magical solution? No, we haven't. Can I give anyone an assurance that Nigel will be released tomorrow, or in a week's time, or a month's time, or over a longer period? No, I can't. We knew from day one, as the family did, that we were faced with a terribly difficult situation and there would be terribly agonising moments along the way. That's certainly been the case for the family. And while we have put particular views to them, it's a matter in the end for them, for the family, as to whether they follow our advice or not.
I know from speaking to the family, when I have seen them person to person, when I've spoken over the phone, that they go through a terrible agony in trying to make judgments as a family as to what they think is in Nigel's best interests - what might maximise the chance of seeing Nigel's release.
LEIGH SALES: You mention that the Government strategy is to wear the kidnappers down to secure the release. What is that strategy?
STEPHEN SMITH: I used that expression but I am not going to go into any detail either of strategic, or tactical, or operational matters, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, that wouldn't actually help. And secondly, it may go further and put Nigel, who is in a difficult and dangerous position, into a more dangerous or even perilous position. One of the difficulties in this has been not wanting to say things in public. Not only does that go to drawing attention to his general situation but what we might be trying to do, in terms of trying to effect his release. And in that respect, as you know yourself, we have requested and asked the media to be very careful about what they report and how they report it. And again this is not said critically.
I know there have been occasions where to exercise what the media regards as its own public interest judgments, it has to report and interview and make comment. But we have never believed, again off the back of the experience and the advice from other governments, other countries, other organisations, we just don't believe that a public discussion of these matters in the end will actually help to try and achieve a successful outcome in what is on anyone's admission a very difficult project, assignment, ambition to get his release.
LEIGH SALES: The family managed to speak to Nigel Brennan yesterday. Have Australian officials spoken to him?
STEPHEN SMITH: Again, I don't want to go into that sort of detail, but yes, Nigel's brother spoke to him yesterday. To use one of the expressions that are used in these cases, that shows you proof of life from effectively yesterday/today. Again I certainly won't go into the detail. We have been proceeding on the basis that Nigel has been alive and we have had our own confirmation of that, which we have been sharing with the family as appropriate and as it occurs. But again I am not proposing to go into that sort of comment or that sort of detail. I don't think it's helpful.
Suffice for me to say that we have allocated, you know, considerable resources, and considerable time, and considerable effort, and considerable energy across the array of Government levels. From Prime Ministerial and Ministerial level, to our departmental levels and then to our agency levels, our operational agency levels, in particular the Australian Federal Police.
We have also invested a lot of time, effort and energy into trying to provide the family here as much consular assistance as we can. And while today Nigel's Mum has been critical of the Government - and we don't make any further remark or comment about that than the one that I said earlier, which is, you know, we understand that and I am not going to say anything which would be seen to be critical, impliedly or expressly of those comments. But we, we have here a very difficult case and at consular level we have put a lot of effort in. And the family, to their great credit, have never been critical of the consular assistance, and the officers from the Australian Federal Police, or the department who have been giving them person-to-person assistance, you know, on a pretty regular basis as much as they can.
LEIGH SALES: Let's turn to the case of another Australian detained overseas, Stern Hu, who is being detained in China. What did the Chinese Foreign Minister say to you today about that?
STEPHEN SMITH: Well, I had a conversation today with my counterpart, Chinese Foreign Minister Yang. We spoke about a range of things, this was one of them. I made the point to him, and told him I would make it public because this was a matter of intense public interest in Australia and more generally. The essential point I made to him was this matter needs to be dealt with expeditiously. It needs to be addressed and resolved as quickly as possible. His response was essentially, you know, "Minister, we are dealing here with a legal or judicial or investigatory matter. Those processes need to play their part. We are dealing with Chinese law and Chinese practices and I understand what you are saying, but there's a process to go through." That response was not a surprise. But I pressed Foreign Minister Yang because this is a case which is high-profile, sensitive, difficult, it does need to be dealt with as quickly as possible.
LEIGH SALES: Does the Australian Government believe that the Chinese justice system affords a fair trial?
STEPHEN SMITH: I am not going to be drawn on any comments on the Chinese justice or criminal justice system for this very good reason.
As I have said on many occasions in respect of this case and others, when Australians choose to go overseas, choose to go overseas to live, or to work, or to travel, and they end up in difficulty, in trouble, often through no fault of their own, but if and when they end up in trouble, they then fall into the justice system, often the criminal justice system of another country. And we have to deal with that.
We have no choice but to treat this matter as a matter of Chinese law. So anyone's commentary about comparison between Chinese law on this point or that point with Australian law or any other jurisdiction, any other country, is in the sense of trying to advance and protect and defend Mr Hu's interest, frankly quite academic. We are dealing here with a person who may well be charged under Chinese law, subject to the Chinese criminal justice system in the context of circumstances where the Chinese authorities believe that it falls within their law against state secrets, which is a much broader concept than in Australia, and as has been clear from the information given to me by Chinese officials both in Canberra and Beijing. We are quite clearly dealing with matters that we would regard as of commercial or economic associated with the 2009 iron-ore negotiations and allegations of bribery or corruption in respect of the getting out of information about those matters.
LEIGH SALES: The West Australian Premier Colin Barnett has been lobbying as well, meeting the Mayor of Shanghai today. Is his intervention helpful?
STEPHEN SMITH: I don't know that you'd describe Colin's, Mr Barnett's, intervention as lobbying. Can I say I believe, and I haven't seen everything that Mr Barnett has said on his trip to China, can I say in this matter Colin Barnett has conducted himself absolutely appropriately and very sensibly. Very sensibly from Mr Hu's perspective but also very sensibly from Mr Barnett's perspective as Premier of the state which is essentially all the iron-ore industry of Australia. Pretty much on day one he rang me, he asked for a briefing. I gave him a briefing. And we have made sure that our officials have been giving him and his officers updated briefings as he has gone on his trip. He has made understated and sensible comments about this matter. I wouldn't describe his process as lobbying. He made representations in Shanghai and he then made a point of saying that because he made representations in Shanghai he was going to get on with his other business.
Which is a point frankly that Foreign Minister Yang and I also agreed with each other, which is, we don't want to see this particular matter get into the way of very important economic relationship to Australia, a very important economic relationship to China, or get in the way generally of the bilateral relationship.
Having said that, we will press on an ongoing basis in a way in which we regard maximises the prospects of protecting and defending Mr Hu's interests.
LEIGH SALES: If we could turn briefly to ASEAN. The US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has said that the US would consider extending a defence umbrella over the Middle East if Iran continues its work towards a nuclear program. Is that the first acknowledgment by the United States that the strategy to get Iran to abandon its nuclear program may fail and that it may ultimately end up a nuclear power and the region needs to prepare accordingly?
STEPHEN SMITH: I wouldn't go quite that far. Either in respect of drawing a conclusion on the part of the US Administration or suggesting that it's the first time they have contemplated the possibility that dialogue won't necessarily be successful. A number of points: firstly, Iran and Iran's nuclear capacity was one of the issues that we discussed at the ASEAN regional forum meeting today. The ARF, where we have 26 nations, and the EU - 27 players from the region. It was one of the issues we discussed. Secondly, we have welcomed very much the efforts of that dialogue and have been disappointed that Iran hasn't responded to the dialogue and disappointed that their post-election difficulties seems to have made the process of dialogue less likely. But I think there's a general consensus that we need to continue, not just the United States, but the regional community, the international community. We need to continue to make efforts to draw Iran out on this matter because the adverse consequences can be quite deleterious. It's quite clear that Iran's nuclear program, its failure to comply with United Nations Security Council resolutions, with determinations of the International Atomic Energy Agency. These are essentially a threat to peace and security in the region. Now in terms of timetable or timing, I think it's a case that most people are looking at this issue in terms of potential capacity as potentially the most serious issue that the international community faces in 2010. So there still remains time for dialogue, but in the end it will require a change of policy on the part of Iran and that's also why there's an element of carrot and stick here.
No one who has been supporting the United Nations Security Council resolutions is contemplating walking away from the sanctions that are currently imposed on Iran. And on the contrary, if it appears as though dialogue isn't working, there's more than one country contemplating the potential for enhanced sanctions against Iran to try and bring them to brook on this matter. LEIGH SALES: Minister, we are out of time. Thank you for joining Lateline tonight.
STEPHEN SMITH: Thank you, thanks very much.
[Ends]
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