Transcript E&OE
19 July 2009
Interview with Barry Cassidy, Insiders
Subjects: Australian casualty in Afghanistan; meetings in Jakarta with Foreign Affairs Minister Hassan Wirajuda and an update on the case of Stern Hu.
BARRIE CASSIDY: Minister, good morning, welcome. Just before we talk about the ...
STEPHEN SMITH: Good morning Barrie.
BARRIE CASSIDY: ...bombings in Jakarta, I understand there may, ah, there may have been some further bad news from Afghanistan overnight.
STEPHEN SMITH: That's right Barrie. As we speak my colleague, Senator Faulkner, and the Chief of the Defence Forces, Angus Houston, are announcing that, terribly, we've had another casualty in Afghanistan. One death and one seriously wounded. I'm not in a position to go into any further detail, but more tragic news from Afghanistan.
BARRIE CASSIDY: Well we will have coverage of that news, ah, news conference, as it comes to hand throughout the program this morning, but it is a reminder, though, of ah, just how dangerous the situation is in Afghanistan.
STEPHEN SMITH: It reminds us how difficult and dangerous Afghanistan is. It also reminds us, given that I'm in Jakarta and we're on the receiving end of a terrorist atrocity, that we're fighting international terrorism. That's why we're there. We think it's in our national interest to be there because that is very much one of the hotbeds of international terrorism and we continue to make our contribution, both on the military side but also on the civil reconstruction and nation-building side, to try and reduce the international threat of terrorism in the Afghanistan-Pakistan border area.
BARRIE CASSIDY: Now, you only arrived in Jakarta late yesterday, but I, as I understand it, you've already met with the Foreign Minister and with some of the families affected?
STEPHEN SMITH: Yesterday I met, when I first arrived, with Foreign Minister Wirajuda. The point of my visit was, in a sense three-fold. Firstly, to show, or to offer our condolences to the family members concerned. I'm now in a position to confirm that Garth McEvoy is dead and we've been proceeding on the basis, since yesterday, that Craig Senger and Nathan Verity were presumed dead. Yesterday I spoke to family members, the wife of Craig Senger, and the wife and the father of Nathan Verity. It's a terrible situation for them but we wanted to offer and show our sympathy to the family members.
Secondly, our people here, in Jakarta - our Embassy officials - they've been through a lot over the recent period. Two Bali bombings, an attack upon the Embassy itself, the plane crash, the Garuda crash, so there's a lot of pain in our own Embassy. Craig Senger, of course, is one of our officers, an Austrade officer, so we wanted to indicate to our people here that we appreciate very much the work they do in very difficult circumstances.
BARRIE CASSIDY: And ...
STEPHEN SMITH: And thirdly, of course, we wanted to say to the Indonesian Government, we stand shoulder to shoulder with you, we are a friend, not just a neighbour, and we stand shoulder to shoulder with you, offering whatever assistance we can, at a terrible time for you.
BARRIE CASSIDY: Yeah, of course, for the Indonesians it is a never-ending battle against these militants as well, and, ah, of course they've randomly killed Indonesians, as well as, ah, as well as Westerners.
STEPHEN SMITH: That's one of the points I made yesterday, at my joint press conference with Foreign Minister Wirajuda, that we don't know the precise number of Indonesians who have died in this atrocity but there is certainly at least one Indonesian death and we express our sympathy and condolence to them.
I made the point, Barrie, that when Australia was on the receiving end of a natural tragedy, the bushfires, Indonesia showed their sympathy, their condolence and offered and gave us assistance, in terms of victim identification. We've now done precisely the same in the face of a man-made tragedy - evil work by evil people - and it reflects the state of the relationship between Australia and Indonesia - it's never been better - and we've been very pleased with the way in which Indonesian authorities over the last half dozen years have worked so closely and so successfully, against terrorism. Indonesia has the best record of arresting and bringing to justice terrorists over the last half dozen years. They've brought hundreds to justice, we congratulate them on that effort and we work very closely with them and we continue to work closely with them.
BARRIE CASSIDY: Nevertheless, people are still dying. What do you do to try and limit the impact on tourism and on trade, and business in general?
STEPHEN SMITH: Given that we've seen such a terrible atrocity at the Marriott and the Ritz Carlton Hotel, there are obviously lessons to be learned. We've been saying for some time that Indonesia continues to be subject to the risk of terrorist attack and we've now seen that. We continued over a period of time to receive credible information and analysis that we were at risk, of course there was an attack at the Marriott Hotel in 2003. Security improvements were made there, but when such a terrible atrocity occurs there are lessons to be learned by everyone, lessons for the Indonesian authorities to learn, lessons for the hotel themselves to learn and also there will no doubt be lessons here, not just in Indonesia, or for Indonesia but also more generally. When the 2003 attack occurred on the Marriott Hotel the changes that were made there also saw comparable changes being made in other high-risk parts of the world.
So we will do an exhaustive assessment of what's occurred, as will the Indonesians and we'll learn from this, but it does - with this brutal and vivid reminder of the dangers of terrorism - it'll take any complacency out of the system but cause us to take stock and see whether there's more that we can do.
BARRIE CASSIDY: And is one of those lessons the fact that perhaps business meetings like this should happen in less conspicuous places?
STEPHEN SMITH: Let me make this point. Almost certainly, as we speak, there'll be business people, diplomats, meeting in Jakarta, in five-star hotels. Because they're regarded as the best, or the safest places to meet. If, for example, diplomats stop doing their work, if international business stop doing their work, then you vacate the field to terrorists. Yes, we know Indonesia does carry risks - as recent events have terribly shown - but we can't vacate the field. What we need to do is to make sure that the arrangements we take to, on the one hand protect our own officials in our Embassy, to protect Australians as they go about their business, we need to make sure we're absolutely vigilant about that. But we can't vacate the field. Yes, of course, there'll be lessons to but if we vacate the field then the terrorists win, that's not something the Indonesian Government is prepared to do and it's not something that we should do.
BARRIE CASSIDY: But isn't there a distinction between not-vacating the field, and just taking sensible precautions?
STEPHEN SMITH: The point I'm making, Barrie, is that where people were meeting in, in the five-star hotels, in Indonesia these places are regarded as the best and the safest places to do business. There were improved security arrangements made at the hotels, since 2003, when we saw the attack upon the Marriott Hotel. And it's not just the Australian business community who used those hotels, the Indonesian Government does, other foreign governments do, the international business community because these are regarded as the best places to do business. In a high-risk, or in a risk environment, these are regarded as the safest places.
Now, clearly, because the bombings have occurred, there's one of two things that, we've got to now do. We'll either discover that there were lapses on the day, or there was some systemic or ongoing breach of security. Either way, there'll be lessons to be learnt, by the hotels, by the Indonesian authorities, by everyone, including ourselves and we've got to take stock of that and whatever changes need to be made then they need to be effected. But it underlines, with a brutal and vivid and tragic reminder, that we can't be complacent, we have to be ever vigilant.
BARRIE CASSIDY: Now, some of the newspapers this morning are reporting here that ah, that Noordin Top is, ah, is a chief suspect. Are you able to say anything about that, given your discussions with the Foreign Minister?
STEPHEN SMITH: I'm not proposing to speculate as to who might be behind it. The Indonesian authorities - and they've indicated they're very happy for us to be involved in their assessments - will do that exhaustive work. They're obviously doing it now. I've seen the same speculation that you've referred to. Clearly Noordin is an active terrorist and he needs to be brought to justice and recently the Indonesian authorities got very close. So he will no doubt fall for consideration but I'm not in the position to confirm, one way or the other, that he or any of the people associated with him are responsible. Those assessments are always done, are always best done, in my view, in the calm, cool light of day, after the exhaustive investigatory analysis have been done.
BARRIE CASSIDY: Well, just finally, on this topic, um, what now is the latest travel warning, and what is your advice to people, particularly those who must do business in Indonesia?
STEPHEN SMITH: Our travel advice for Indonesia has, for half a dozen years, been, 'Consider your need to travel to Indonesia.' And that is on the basis of ongoing credible information that there is a risk of terrorist attacks and the travel advisory draws attention to a dozen or so sites where that risk exists, including hotels. So the advice is, as stated in the travel advisory, if people come to Indonesia, obviously they need to be aware of that travel advice and take sensible precautions and sensible measures in response to it. But the travel advice is just that, it's advice, it's not a direction, people make their own judgments, but if they do come then obviously they need to go to those places where all of the evidence, all of the advice, is that they are the least risky, or the safest, places to go. But in light of this brutal and vivid and tragic reminder, as I say, there obviously will be lessons to be learned and we'll take stock of those, as will the Indonesians, as will other governments, as will the international business community.
BARRIE CASSIDY: Well Minister, just briefly, on the Stern Hu detention. Essentially, what was your message to the Vice Foreign Minister, that you delivered in Egypt, and what was his response?
STEPHEN SMITH: The message was two things. Firstly, that we needed to have more information about the circumstances surrounding his detention and, secondly, that the matter needed to be dealt with expeditiously. And, I did receive, from Vice Minister He, more information and since that meeting our officials have also received more information. It's quite clear they are focusing on a criminal or judicial investigation, relating to the 2009 iron ore negotiations. That is their clear focus, they're not interested in what we would regard as espionage, or national security matters. These are commercial and economic matters, which, under their general definition of state secrets, is included. So, it was part of the ongoing dialogue and, as the Prime Minister and I have made clear, when opportunities arise, I'll obviously raise it with my counterpart and at an appropriate time, if it's required or necessary, the Prime Minister will raise it at his level. But we are taking this methodically, treating it step by step because we think that is the best approach - that assiduous approach is the best approach - to try and protect and defend, Mr Hu's interests.
BARRIE CASSIDY: But what are they saying, specifically, about Stern Hu, and those price negotiations, what are they saying that he did that was improper, or illegal?
STEPHEN SMITH: What they're saying is that their investigation is ongoing and when they've brought their investigation to a conclusion they may well make a decision to charge him and then if they do charge him the precise details will be there for all to see. The second point I made to them was that that process needs to be done expeditiously. Of course it needs to be done in accordance with Chinese law and Chinese practice, but it does need to be done quickly. And so I pressed that point upon Vice Minister He and I'll continue to make that point to my counterpart, as appropriate, as will our officials. But, I've made this point from day one, Stern Hu has been at risk of being involved in Chinese legal, potentially criminal, justice procedures and system, and we have to deal with that accordingly. But, Vice Minister He made it clear that the Chinese are regarding this matter as an individual matter. They're not treating this as a more general matter, so far as the relationship is concerned. They want it to be treated in the context of Chinese law and Chinese procedures and that is, from the Australian Government's point of view, the only option that we have and that is why we are proceeding in the way that we have, not somehow pretending that one phone call from one official to another official can somehow magically solve a difficulty when an Australian citizen is involved in potentially the criminal or legal justice system of another country.
BARRIE CASSIDY: No, but it does sound as if, even face to face, with Vice Minister He, it sounds as if they were prepared to talk in generalities, but not specifically about Stern Hu and what they're alleging.
STEPHEN SMITH: There are a couple of comments I can make in response to that. Firstly, I've made it clear that I would have preferred to have received much more information from Chinese officials, much earlier than I have. And, I was frankly disappointed that I didn't get those through the usual channels. Secondly, it's quite clear that more information is required, but that is now clearly bound up, so far as the Chinese is concerned, in an ongoing investigation. Stern Hu may well be charged. If he's charged then that will bring with it the more precise information that is required, for him, and - if it comes to it - his legal representatives to defend his interests.
I've continued to make it clear to the Chinese officials, including Vice Minister He, that we believe we need more information. The response to that is, there is an ongoing investigation which potentially includes allegations of bribery, allegations of criminal conduct and that's what we're continuing to grapple with. But there is no magic solution here. As I've said previously, we have to expect that we may well be in for a long haul here, but we'll continue to assiduously act in Mr Hu's interests and as appropriate I will raise it with my counterpart, Foreign Minister Yang, or other Chinese officials, as appropriate and of course, in the meantime, our officials, in Canberra, in Beijing, and in Shanghai, continue to do precisely that.
BARRIE CASSIDY: Foreign Minister Stephen Smith, thank you for joining us this morning from Jakarta. Appreciate it.
[End]
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