Transcript E&OE
20 May 2009
Interview by David Reyne and Christie Malthouse on Channel 10’s Dave and Kim Show
Subjects: Mrs Smoel in Thailand; people smuggling and refugees.DAVID REYNE: An Australian mother is currently on bail in Thailand awaiting trial and a possible five years jail for allegedly stealing a bar mat in Phuket. The penalty seems severe, but such is the Thai law.
What assistance can be given to this woman?
CHRISTI MALTHOUSE: These and other diplomatic challenges are the daily fare of Foreign Affairs Minister, Stephen Smith. He joins us on the Nine AM couch with some timely advice for Australians abroad.
DAVID REYNE: Good morning, Stephen.
CHRISTI MALTHOUSE: Good morning.
DAVID REYNE: What - when it comes to this Australian woman in - Australian mum in Thailand facing a possible five years in jail, what realistically can your department do to assist?
STEPHEN SMITH: Well, we provide consular assistance. But whenever an Australian overseas comes in contact with another country's legal or judicial system, then there's a limit to what we can do.
She's on bail, and our officials in Thailand have been giving her and her husband, who's there with her, assistance and the family assistance in Australia. We...
DAVID REYNE: What does that mean though?
STEPHEN SMITH: Well, we've made sure that she, for example, has got legal advice. She was given bail yesterday and she appears again on 28 May.
They have a different system than ours, so the police are currently considering whether to lay charges to see whether she'll be prosecuted.
So we've made sure she's got access to legal advice. But just as an Australian here who comes in contact with the legal system has to rely upon their lawyer's advice and go through the legal system, so too does she.
It's a very distressing time for her and her family, obviously.
DAVID REYNE: To what extent can your department argue the severity of the possible penalty?
STEPHEN SMITH: Well...
DAVID REYNE: It does seem extreme to us.
CHRISTI MALTHOUSE: Before the action.
STEPHEN SMITH: Well, there are things which we might look at which, in an Australian context, may seem minor, which in other countries is not minor at all. Now, I don't want to and can't comment on the details of this case, but when Australians are overseas, they need to conduct themselves, obviously, in a manner which is consistent with the law of the country they're in, but also conduct themselves appropriately so far as the culture of that country is concerned.
I won't comment on the possible sentences, because she hasn't yet been charged, she hasn't yet been tried, she hasn't been convicted. So we'll take it step by step.
But what to us might seem minor, to another country can be a major issue. And so, Australians have to be careful when they go overseas. They should always consult our Smartraveller website for details about...
DAVID REYNE: Mmm. It's a very good website too, by the way.
STEPHEN SMITH: It is a good website. About that particular country. And always remember that if they're in another country, if they do get into trouble, there is a limit to what we can do. Often, what we can do is restrict it to providing - making sure they've got access to local legal advice.
DAVID REYNE: Mmm.
STEPHEN SMITH: Some of the things that I'm, for example, often asked to do would be serious criminal offences here. I'm often asked to stop a police force of another country prosecuting someone. If I was asked to do that in Australia, I'd end up before a court myself.
Also, I'm often asked to interfere in the court processes of another country. If a member of Parliament, or a minister, state or federal, sought to do that in Australia, you'd also end up before a court.
So people have to be careful, conduct themselves appropriately. And when we are able to offer assistance, we do. I know, for example, Ms Smoel's family have been contacted about a dozen times, and she's been in touch with officials on about eight or nine occasions.
We've got one of our best teams in Thailand. We have 20,000 or 30,000 Australians living or working in Thailand at any point in time, and over half a million tourists go through Thailand on an annual basis. So we've got lots of experience in dealing with difficult matters.
In the meantime, of course, it's a very distressing time for the family, so we obviously feel for them, but we are now, as they are, having to go through a Thai legal process.
DAVID REYNE: Yeah.
CHRISTI MALTHOUSE: Premier John Brumby suggested that this will further hurt tourism to Thailand. Do you agree with that?
STEPHEN SMITH: Well, we've made the point to Thailand itself that in recent times, they've had their own internal political differences, the closure of airports, big protests, and we've said to Thailand - I had their Foreign Minister in Perth recently, that this has not been good for Thailand's international reputation. And they understand that - particularly the disruption to travel, the closing of the airport, does have the potential to have an adverse impact on their tourist industry.
But from Australia's perspective, and the perspective of Australians, there are two - always two sides to a story. Australians need to be careful when they're overseas to conduct themselves in accordance with the law of the country they're in. But also, just to bear in mind they're not in Australia, and what they might do in Australia often may not be appropriate when they're in a different country.
DAVID REYNE: Mmm. Let's move on.
STEPHEN SMITH: Sure.
DAVID REYNE: Let's talk about what Julie Bishop called a shocking breach of security.
STEPHEN SMITH: [Laughs] I know this is a family show, but it’s what I called a stuff-up.
[Laughter]
DAVID REYNE: Was it a sh... was it, in fact...
STEPHEN SMITH: Oh look, it was...
DAVID REYNE: You tabled some documents in Parliament which...
STEPHEN SMITH: Well, I didn't physically table them. What happened was, there's a set of documents that relate to our multilateral negotiations, which is treaties we have with international institutions in a range of countries.
And every quarter, I authorise the tabling in the Parliament of where we are on those developments. And so it - and I've done it three or four times. It came up. And I signed it off. There was only one problem. Also attached to the file were details of our bilateral negotiations - individual treaties with other countries. That's a document that we provide to state and territory officials who need to be consulted about our ongoing treaty negotiations.
And so the two were inadvertently put together. It was a mistake in the department, a mistake in my office, a mistake by me. And so they were tabled inadvertently. I took it - tried to take it on the chin. It was a mistake. I didn't like it. I don't like making mistakes. And particularly don't like making mistakes where they might have an adverse impact on our relationships with other countries.
CHRISTI MALTHOUSE: Will they?
STEPHEN SMITH: No, no. We're now very confident that nothing has occurred or been released which is going to have an adverse impact on our, you know, constructive and positive relations with a range of countries.
DAVID REYNE: Plans to supply uranium to China?
STEPHEN SMITH: Well that's on the public record. Most of these things were on the public record in some manner or form. That one related to a possible expansion by BHP Billiton of its Olympic Dam site in South Australia. So what we're doing there is, if there is an expansion, we'll need to amend or add to the safeguards arrangements we have, because we have very high standards in terms of handling our uranium overseas.
But look. It was just one of those things. Obviously, I've reviewed procedures in my office. The department have reviewed procedures in theirs. But the other thing I've done is, we've put this out inadvertently. We're very confident no adverse consequences have come from it.
So what I'm now doing is saying, okay. If we put it out in a manner that we provide to state officials, maybe we can think about putting it out more deliberatively, more thoughtfully in the future.
So that's one of the things that I'm having a look at as well.
DAVID REYNE: There's so much to talk to you about obviously. We won't get to half of it, I'm sure, this morning. But I'd love to talk to you about what you did last night.
STEPHEN SMITH: Sure.
DAVID REYNE: And this is something that the Government is doing quite regularly now - the community cabinet meeting. What are they? And do they - are they effective?
STEPHEN SMITH: Well I think they're very effective. It helps keep you in touch. It gives locals the chance to front up and ask the Prime Minister and Ministers questions, both in the general gathering of two or three or four hundred people, but then people make requests for appointments and sit down with individual ministers.
As I did last night.
DAVID REYNE: So one on one. I could sit down with the Prime Minister.
STEPHEN SMITH: Yeah. You put in your request for an interview, and you get your...
DAVID REYNE: Oh, so provided he likes my request.
STEPHEN SMITH: It's a bit more sophisticated than that. But like, last night, I sat down with a couple of people, local people, very interested in what we do overseas - our development assistance, our aid program. And I say one of the things that Australia prides itself on is being a good international citizen.
Even in difficult economic times, you know, we're a prosperous well off country, and we can do our bit to help. So we like to be a good international citizen, helping our neighbours and countries in our region - so I had a couple of people who are very interested in that. And they want to discuss what are we doing in terms of humanitarian assistance to Burma, what are we doing humanitarian assistance to Sri Lanka, what are we doing to try and help countries in the Pacific have better maternal health and childcare standards?
So you get the chance to sit down and have a conversation with ministers. Other people sat down with some of my colleagues to go through individual problems where they've come up against difficulties in the system.
CHRISTI MALTHOUSE: Well besides your one on one meetings, was there a general concern among the public that they...
STEPHEN SMITH: Well I think last night it would be true to say that the concerns were focusing on economic matters. We're going through difficult global economic financial time. We've just come out of a tough budget under any circumstance. So there's obviously concern about the current financial consequences of that international, of those international difficulties.
But also some longer-term questions. There's clearly some concern about the increase in the pension age, and how that is going to be staged.
So I think at times of economic difficult, I think people do tend to focus more on national and individual economic circumstances.
DAVID REYNE: Look, just quickly, there's hardly been a day go by where there hasn't been something in the papers about asylum seekers, refugees, boat people, and so on.
What should we be offering genuine asylum seekers, and why the sudden surge, and how do we stop people smugglers?
STEPHEN SMITH: Well the sudden surge, as you describe it, comes from the fact we've now got a range of what we call push factors. Afghanistan-Pakistan border area, Sri Lanka, where the... you've got effectively wars or serious conflicts driving people away. And that's what caused the most recent set of arrivals.
In the historical or modern context, we're still dealing with small numbers, but nonetheless, anytime there is an irregular arrival is cause for concern.
So we've beefed up our border protection and patrol. We've also beefed up the arrangements that we've put in place with our neighbours. When we saw big surges in the late 1990s and the early 2000s, we worked out very good arrangements with Indonesia.
We're now seeking to have comparable arrangements with other countries that are now relevant. Sri Lanka is obviously one, given the conflict there. Malaysia, and others.
DAVID REYNE: And are those arrangements to keep - to stop the surge? To stop the movement of boat people? Because these are genuine refugees. We have to offer them something...
STEPHEN SMITH: Well if people come to Australia, whether they come by boat, which we do our best to stop the irregular movement; or whether they come by plane and claim asylum, we're a party to the convention of refugees, so we deal with people appropriately, in accordance with our international and domestic legal obligations. If they're refugees, then they either stay here or they go to a third country in accordance with the conventions.
If they're not refugees, if it's safe for them to return home, they're returned home. So if someone is a genuine refugee, our international obligation is to hear their claim. And we do. But there are many people who come here who are what people describe as economic refugees, where they're moving from one country in search of a better life.
Well that doesn't necessarily qualify them to stay here on the basis of being a refugee. A refugee is someone who is in genuine fear of their life because of political or other circumstances in their own country.
DAVID REYNE: All right, look, there's so much to talk about, as I've said. We've run out of time. It's great to see you again. Hope to see you soon.
STEPHEN SMITH: Thanks very much.
DAVID REYNE: All the best.
STEPHEN SMITH: Cheers.
CHRISTI MALTHOUSE: Thank you very much.
[Ends]
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