E&OE
10 August 2008
Interview with Laurie Oakes on Sunday Morning News
Subjects: Georgia, Pakistan, Visit to Indonesia, NT election
BROWN: To national politics now: our guest this morning is Foreign Affairs Minister Stephen Smith who's in our Perth studio, and here to talk with him is the Nine network's political editor, Laurie Oakes.
Good morning Laurie.
OAKES: Morning Tara.
Minister, welcome to the program.
SMITH: Thanks very much Laurie.
OAKES: The Olympics are supposed to be about peace and international good will, and yet they opened with Russia launching a military attack against a neighbouring country. What's Australia's response to that?
SMITH: Well, we're obviously very concerned. Our starting point is that we respect Georgia's territorial sovereignty over South Ossetia. We call on all the parties to immediately engage in a ceasefire, and we urge all parties to commence a dialogue.
The Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe has offered the Finnish Foreign Minister to get the parties together to discuss what's been a longstanding difficult issue, and NATO and other European interests are involved, including the UN. So, we call upon a ceasefire immediately, and we urge all parties to resolve the dispute by dialogue; not by force of arms.
OAKES: Are we taking diplomatic action? For example, are you going to have the Russian ambassador hauled in?
SMITH: We'll obviously be making our usual discussion - sorry, we'll obviously be making our usual representations to our posts in Georgia, in Russia. We'll be making these same points in Canberra. We're joining with other like-minded countries or organisations - the UN, the EU, the United States, the United Kingdom - calling on the parties to cease violence and to resolve what's been a longstanding dispute by negotiation and discussion. And we urge all parties to concur with that.
I note overnight the Georgian leadership has indicated that they'll engage in a ceasefire if the Russians do as well, and we urge both parties to proceed down that path.
OAKES: You say you'll be making those points in Canberra; does that mean you will be hauling in the Russian ambassador?
SMITH: Well, we won't be hauling anyone in. We'll do it in the usual way.
OAKES: How's that?
SMITH: We will express privately, as we are publicly, our view that we want the parties to cease violence immediately and to resolve the conflict by discussion. So it won't be a matter of hauling people in; it'll be a matter of firmly, in the usual way, making our view known to the parties concerned and the international community.
But our starting point's quite clear: we respect Georgia's territorial sovereignty over South Ossetia and we want the parties to proceed in a manner which resolves the dispute by dialogue and discussion, not by the force of arms or the use of arms.
OAKES: The Georgian government says, if the Russians get away with this, no country in Europe is safe from Russian aggression: do you think it's that serious?
SMITH: Well, we think that any use of force, any use of arms, to resolve disputes is serious, and we take it very seriously. Now, I know this has occurred in the context of the Olympics, but that - and that is of itself very regrettable - but this has been a longstanding dispute. There have been tensions between Georgia and Russia. They've been there simmering for some time. The South Ossetians sought to unilaterally declare independence in 2005, 2006 - that hasn't received international community support. There's been a peacekeeping force in there, established on a regional basis, which has included Russians and North Ossetians and Georgians, and that was until the most recent period, the last few days, essentially keeping a tense but calm situation there.
We'd had violence break out - that's regrettable. There has been, you know, an escalation of violence which we think is regrettable. We don't want that to occur and continue, and we join with other like-minded parties and the relevant organisations - whether it's the UN, the EU or the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe - calling on the parties to cease violence immediately and to engage in a dialogue.
Any use of force to resolve these things, we regard of concern and being very regrettable.
OAKES: Another area of instability at the moment, of concern to Australia, is Pakistan. Do you believe the civilian government there will succeed in getting rid of President Musharraf, and is that the best thing - is that what Australia wants?
SMITH: Well, that's a matter for the internal Pakistan political system to resolve; that's a matter for their parliament, for their political leadership and the Pakistan system generally.
Certainly what we don't want is an ongoing period of instability in domestic politics in Pakistan. We're very concerned about the Pakistan/Afghanistan border area. We think that's not just an issue to be resolved bilaterally between Pakistan and Afghanistan, but it's an issue that has regional and international implications.
So, the Pakistanis have to resolve their own international arrangements. We want to engage in a much more constructive dialogue with Pakistan generally, but also, indicate to them, as I have privately, that we stand ready, willing and able, to offer relevant assistance to them as they come to grips with what is a very difficult circumstance in the so-called FATA areas near the Afghanistan border.
OAKES: Well, President Musharraf has been a close ally of the Americans in the fight against terrorism: do you think if he's removed, that will adversely affect the efforts to deal with Osama bin Laden, al-Qaeda and the Taliban?
SMITH: Well, the points I've made to my counter-part, the Pakistan foreign minister, we think it's very important for Pakistan - however the Pakistani government is constituted - we think it's very important for Pakistan to understand that the difficulties that they find in the FATA area, in the border area with Afghanistan, has very serious adverse implications for Australia. We have 1,100 troops in Oruzgan province, and it's an area, a matter, that we have interest in.
But, it's not for us to be indicating to the Pakistanis how they should democratically resolve their internal political arrangements. That's a matter for them. We believe that not just Australia, but the regional and international community, has to engage in a much more effective dialogue with Pakistan, because as I have made the point, what's occurring there has not just implications for the region, but also implications internationally. We very much regard the Pakistan/Afghanistan border area as the current hotbed of international terrorism, and that's why we very strongly believe it's our national interests to be in there, engage both in combat and military action, but also, trying to build or rebuild the Afghanistan people in a civil recon... the Afghanistan nation in a civil reconstruction way.
OAKES: It's in Indonesia where Australians have suffered at the hands of terrorists: you're off on a visit to Indonesia tonight. Will terrorism be the key part of your agenda there?
SMITH: It'll be one of the very significant features. I'm leaving tonight from Perth. I'll spend three days in Indonesia. I'll have formal bilateral discussions with my counterpart, Foreign Minister Wirajuda in Jakarta tomorrow. One of the things we will reflect upon is that the last time we met formally, in Perth, we signed the Lombok Treaty. That establishes the firm relationship between Australia and Indonesia in the modern day, and that has memorandum of understandings, or action plan, underneath the Lombok Treaty, which deal with counter-terrorism and security matters.
And we've been very pleased with the way in which Indonesia has been very successful, so far as counter-terrorism has been concerned in recent times, and we've been working very closely with them, whether it's government to government, or whether it's the relevant instrumentalities, like the Australian Federal Police.
So, yes, our ongoing efforts in counter-terrorism in South-East Asia will be part of my discussions with Foreign Minister Wirajuda.
OAKES: There are, I think, three Australians facing the death penalty in Indonesia: will you be trying to intervene on their behalf during this trip?
SMITH: Well, in accordance with what we always do when there are Australians who are the subject of death penalties, we will privately raise those cases with the Indonesian authorities. I've done that previously when I've met with Foreign Minister Wirajuda, so I'll be just making those - the points, in our formal bilateral conversation in Jakarta tomorrow, that we have three of the Bali Nine still subject to a death penalty. I'll make enquiries about the progress of their cases through the Indonesian legal and judicial system, and again make the point that when those processes have completed, that if any of those three still remain the subject of a death penalty, we'll be making a plea for clemency in accordance with our normal processes.
OAKES: Now, the - there are the Bali bombers also on death row in Indonesia; some confusion at the moment, they're trying to stave off their execution. If, when you raise the question of commuting the sentences of three Australians, the Indonesians say, well, what about the Bali bombers, how do you respond?
SMITH: Well, how I respond is in the following way: that as a general proposition, Australia doesn't support capital punishment. That's our longstanding policy position, and in international forums we put that and present that view. And countries who have capital punishment as a penalty, in the appropriate forums - the United Nations and others - we make the point that we believe nation-states should move away from capital punishment.
But so far as individual cases are concerned, when it's involving Australian citizens like the three in Indonesia, of the Bali Nine, we make representations on their behalf, as we should. And we do those privately or publicly as the case requires.
If it's anyone else, we'll make a judgement on a case by case basis as to whether we should make an individual representation. But the Prime Minister and I have both made clear that we don't propose to make representations on behalf of terrorists who have been subject to the death penalty.
So I won't be making any individual representations so far as the Bali bombers are concerned. And I think that's appropriate. People would be expect me to be making representations so far as Australians are concerned, but I'm not proposing to make any individual representations so far as the terrorists engaged in the Bali bombing are concerned.
OAKES: Now I know Cabinet discusses this matter very recently: is it now the government's position that there should be no hypocrisy about this, that we should take the same attitude, whether the death penalty's imposed on Australian citizens or on others, including the Bali bombers?
SMITH: Well, I'm not going to indicate what may or may not have been discussed at Cabinet, but our position is quite straightforward. We don't support the use of capital punishment. When an Australian overseas has been subject to - has been convicted and subject to the capital punishment as a sentence, we make representations on behalf of Australian citizens. At the moment we have three in Indonesia and we have two in Vietnam, and I've made representations on their behalf since I became Foreign Minister.
When it comes to other individuals, we'll make a judgement - who aren't Australian citizens - we'll make a judgement on a case by case basis as to whether it's appropriate to make representations or to join in representations at a regional or multilateral level.
For example, one incident that - or one example that has occurred since I became Foreign Minister, was Australia making representations with a range of other nations about the application of the death penalty against minors, against children, in Iran. When it comes to terrorists, the Prime Minister and I have made it clear that we won't be proposing to make representations so far as terrorists are concerned, if they have been subject to the death penalty.
OAKES: All right.
SMITH: [Interrupts] We don't regard that as - sorry, go on.
OAKES: Let me ask you this, a straight question: do you believe the Bali bombers should be executed?
SMITH: Well, that's entirely a matter for the Indonesian authorities. As you say, said, in your introduction to this question...
OAKES: [Interrupts] But I didn't ask you about the Indonesian authorities, I asked you about the Australian government's view.
SMITH: Well, the Australian government's view is, we don't believe in capital punishment and we don't believe that nation-states who continue to use capital punishment, should continue to do so. And we make representations about that in the appropriate international organisations.
When it comes to individual cases, where terrorists are concerned, we don't make representations on behalf of individual terrorists. But so far as the Bali bombers are concerned, as you said in your introduction to this part of your questions, there is some confusion as to whether they are continuing to utilise legal avenues available to them to avoid the application of the death penalty. And as a very strong principle, I don't make a running commentary on Indonesian legal or judicial processes. I apply that, whether it's in the case of the Bali bombers or in the case of the Bali Nine.
In the end, we wait until the Indonesian legal and judicial processes, and their relevant appeal processes, have exhausted themselves. And then, if it relates to Australian citizens, we make our representations in the manner that I've outlined.
OAKES: We're out of time, but I want to raise one quick issue at the end: the Labor Party...
SMITH: Sure.
OAKES: ...was supposed to romp back into office in the Northern Territory, and yet there was a big swing against you. You may hang onto government there by the skin of your teeth. Does this mean the tide's turning against Labor?
SMITH: Well, I don't know that I'd say generally the tide's turning against Labor: these are always case by cases basis. I mean, it's always been hard for Labor to win in the Northern Territory, just as in Western Australia - my own state - I'm expecting a tough and tight election in Western Australia. I'm confident that we'll win, but in states like Western Australia and the Northern Territory, it's always been hard for Labor.
Obviously it's been a close contest overnight. We hope very much that Paul Henderson is successful. But in the community, so far as the Federal Government is concerned, I continue to get good feedback from the public who indicate they're pleased that we've been implementing our election promises, and they believe that the government is doing a good job being calm and assured...
OAKES: So, no federal implications?
SMITH: ...in addressing the long term issues.
I always have believed, Laurie, that the Australian public make a very clear distinction between voting for a territory government or voting for a state government; they understand fully the implications of our federal system. So, I don't draw too much into the Northern Territory result, and I won't draw too much from the Western Australian result, other than to say, we know that'll be a tough election.
But the Liberals have been very much in disarray here, and Alan Carpenter's done a good job in difficult circumstances. So, whilst we think it'll be tough, we're confident that Alan Carpenter will do well.
OAKES: Minister, we thank you.
SMITH: Thanks very much, Laurie, thank you.
OAKES: Back to you Tara.
BROWN: Thanks very much Laurie, see you next week.
[Ends]
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