5 February 2008, International Dateline Hotel, Nuku’alofa, Tonga
Interview with Pesi Fonua, Managing Editor, Matangi Tonga
with the Hon Bob McMullan MP, Parliamentary Secretary for International Development Assistance
Pesi Fonua: Being a new Parliamentary Secretary for Pacific Island Affairs – are they new posts?
Kerr: Yes. Well it is a new post but it reflects the priority for the Pacific that historically, Labor Governments have given. When we were in government last when Paul Keating was Prime Minister, we had a Minister who was the duty minister who was assisting the Foreign Minister in relation to the Pacific, Gordon Bilney, so the resurrection of the responsibility for Pacific Island Affairs is both a return to tradition, but it is also a reflection of the commitment that Kevin Rudd gave in the election to our region as a cornerstone of our foreign affairs and strategic and security interest because there is a whole range of overarching issues that affect our neighbourhood very profoundly.
Going from the top we look at things like climate change, there is nothing, that is, no single area that is more likely to have a more profound influence like climate change in the Pacific.
You look at the possibility of instability as a cost and you really have to look at Solomons to see where an ounce of prevention would have been worth a ton of cure. And where the former government sat on its hands despite repeated requests from the then-government of Bart Ulufa’alu. And reinforced indeed by myself when I was a visiting Parliamentarian in writing to the Foreign Minister saying that there was the possibility of the Solomon Islands falling apart in a disastrous way. But we weren’t focused sufficiently on our region to pick up the tremor signs before the earthquake.
The big cross-regional issues like climate change, there are issues which we need to be sensitive to and ready to respond to quickly if we need to because you’ve seen the costs that’s happened to our whole region when the Solomon’s disintegrated.
Then there are looming issues that really aren’t sufficiently on the agenda raised in some discussions like HIV/AIDS, where much of the Pacific including both Tonga and Samoa mercifully are relatively low down in terms of the impact of HIV/AIDS. Other of our regional neighbours like Papua New Guinea have very significant rates of infection and travel now exists between all of our countries. Tourism happens all the time so the idea that you can be isolated and not have to take into account, this is silly. So there are very real reasons to go on the front foot and work to develop a preventative strategy at an early stage across Pacific Island countries that don’t have a problem now so that they minimize the chance that they do have a problem in the future.
There are discussions about regional labour mobility. Then of course there are all the development assistance issues that Bob McMullan is particularly responsible for.
One of the things we have decided to do as between ourselves, Bob and myself, is to work in a basically hand-in-hand method when it comes to the Pacific. His region is really much broader than the Pacific. He has development assistance responsibilities that go to Africa and go to a whole other range of aid programs. When it comes to the Pacific, which has become elevated in terms of Australia’s attention, then we’ll work together and bring in other Ministers as required into discussions. Of course he is not taking away the focus of the Foreign Minister or the Prime Minister, it’s supplementing it. The Prime Minister has already met with Mr Somare in a side meeting at Bali, and had a meeting with Prime Minister Sikua in Canberra so the relationship with Solomon Islands starts on a fresh page.
I think that we are really trying to demonstrate through these initial steps an approach which we will keep proceeding with for the term of this government and we, of course, hope in the future terms of Labor Governments to come, but that’s for the electors of Australia
Pesi Fonua: But the development assistance where you’re Parliamentary Secretary for?
McMullan: There was never anyone specifically responsible for it in this way before but we have had a program going on for a long time and we made clear before the election that we would increase the size of the program between now and over perhaps about seven years at a steady increase. I expect to see that commence and be reflected in this year’s budget. We will be doing more but it is not as new and different as Duncan’s responsibility which is the first time for more than ten years we have had a person specifically responsible for Pacific Island affairs.
Pesi Fonua: I know there is a lot of things happening in the region – you mentioned climate changes but I suppose also civil upheavals in some of these islands is a relatively new thing. Are they part of your reason why you think the new…
Kerr: No, I don’t think so, but I don’t think there were any specific triggers for it. I think we would have done it had the events in the Solomons not occurred and had, for example, the troubles not occurred in Tonga. But they reinforce the importance of this. My own personal experience in the Solomons where I was on the ground when the warning signs were there and the Australian Government failed to act, reinforces to me how you really have to be present. When you are in Canberra and you don’t have the beat, the Pacific beat, so you’re constantly in touch with the way things are, I think it is easy sometimes for these things to fall down the priority list and only emerge when there is a crisis. We don’t want to do it that way. We want to have a focus on the Pacific which is able to adjust and adapt to circumstances as they arise built around respect for each other and we are trying to get partnership agreements so that we will be building towards partnership agreements between Australian and Pacific Island countries around their priorities and where we share those priorities. There will be times when we disagree and nation states do disagree from time to time but hopefully we can deal with those disagreements because of a strong relationship with respect rather than by shouting at each other.
Pesi Fonua: I notice in your program you visited some of the government programs here and I am just wondering – I know that Australia puts a lot of money into what we refer to as the National Political Change Program that was initiated by the Hon Prince Tu’ipelehake and I think also the current reform has some involvement from Australia. Did you have a look at that program?
Kerr: Yes, and it is necessary to have a reform program. Hard, though, that may be for people who are immediately affected because ultimately the government that has an administration that is larger than its capacity to pay for cannot deliver services and has to operate in a manner which will ultimately lead to a lack of success. So, nobody likes being the messenger saying that there has to be commitment to a reform program, but the Government of Tonga knows that there has to be. We share that view and we want to work, because there will be instances where, for example, after someone with particular experience is lost out of a public service there may be a need to assist in some process of institution strengthening, but we can’t ignore the fact that there are budget realities that affect both us and the Pacific Island countries.
Pesi Fonua: You know, just along that line, there’s always a feeling that, since I came to Tonga, that when the government will initiate a program and then asks for assistance, from say Australia, and then Australia will basically come in and help implement such a program. And then in the implementation process you will get someone from Australia who would like to see everything efficient and run the way it is supposed to be in Australia. Then there is a lack in the local crowd where people don’t really understand what is happening. I mean, just for an example, is the Customs. I think the Customs when Lee Deegan was there, they did a good job, but the mess up at the wharf is because the people work underhand and also the public have no idea what the….
Kerr: I know Bob will say more, but just let me say one thing in terms of the politics of this. The politics is that unsustainable solutions will ultimately fall apart. Both Bob and I are now focused, we will not always get it right, we may make mistakes, but Bob and I are very, very keen on supporting governments to identify their key priorities and then working to make sure that solutions that we are involved in, are sustainable. That may mean institution strengthening but that’s code word for making sure that people on the ground develop the skills that enable them to operate, over time, programs into the future. No good putting money into something that is going to fall apart. That would just be a waste from everyone’s point of view. Bob is in control of this process, much more than I.
McMullan: That’s basically the core point. What we are looking to do is agree with the Government of Tonga what the priorities are, start down that track in a manner that is sustainable, and try to provide the support, the training, the experience so that as quickly as possible, it will be taken over by skilled and able Tongans who will run the program. That’s our long-term ambition. Otherwise we have wasted Australian taxpayers’ money apart from anything else, apart from not being much use here. An interesting example I think is the area of vocational education and training. We have spoken to the Prime Minister about it, we have spoken to the responsible Minister about it and we’ve had Australian consultants come in and look at the plans and we will try and be of assistance in making sure – the plan looks pretty good I must say - that all the skills are there and the training of the trainers. But it’ll be a Tongan scheme run by the Government of Tonga to which we provide support. It won’t be an Australian scheme imported which, when we leave, will not continue, that would be just pointless.
Kerr: In Australia, for example, sometimes we look for a leading international expert for a particular task. I mean, we are not so smart in Australia that Australians are leading the field in everything, so even in Australia, which is a bigger country, there will be times when we will seek out people to undertake particular tasks that are important, though with an international experience, international reputation. There may be instances where for short-term reasons the Government of Tonga needs a person – loses somebody, somebody dies or retires, or has shown not to be able to manage a task, it may be short term that you look to somebody from Australia or New Zealand or from another Pacific Island country to fill that. But our strategic interest is making sure that the big programs that you operate you’ve got the people who can do those tasks yourselves, because Australia can’t be filling those jobs.
Pesi Fonua: My question wasn’t really targeting at the fact that you bring in an Australian to do it. I was just looking at, for example, the government is setting up to have an Anti-Corruption Commission and I feel that they are going to try and set it up really soon. It’s things like that, I think its sort of misfired, because you will set up a Commission and then nothing will happen because down the rank in the service the people don’t really understand what this Commission is doing.
McMullan: Well, if we were committed well and wisely, that problem shouldn’t arise. Now, I am not saying it never does. Of course we all know examples, not just here but all over the world it has happened. Sometimes every country implements something and it turns out not to be a success and you have to learn from the mistake. Something like the Anti-Corruption Commission is a very important initiative to give the rest of the world confidence and we have to show that it can and will act and it needs reasonably quickly to be led by someone who has the confidence of the local people. We’ll see how it goes but we are very keen to see Tonga go down that path. The government seems to wish to do so, and we think it is the right decision if they do.
Pesi Fonua: I agree with that. Just to raise a point, that we have the Complaint Commission, and I tell you that Complaint Commission has been around about five years and I think they have got about two complaints. Its just things like that, I think the public are not ready.
McMullan: You do have to measure your progress, I mean, you can describe a perfect world, but if you try to get there too quickly you may wind up going backwards. We do have to measure the pace of progress against what’s possible, but essentially that is a matter to be determined here. We will get priorities, which we have pretty well effectively got in the last two days communicated to us by the Government here, and we’ll do our best to provide assistance to implement them but it’s no good racing ahead with things you can’t do. I think at the moment we are heading towards a reasonably realistic program. In health, in education, in police and environment that we are reasonably comfortable with pursuing and taking further but that’s for discussion between the officials about what the program or reform will look like. But at the moment I am optimistic.
Pesi Fonua: Well, I am just thinking about, I know the Australians have put a lot of money into this reform program that we are trying to implement for 2010. Do you think it’s a reality?
McMullan: They say so, that is really the ultimate issue that is totally the responsibility of the Government of Tonga. That’s the political system of the country. It’s got to be determined by Tongans. It doesn’t seem to me to be an unrealistic timetable, if the people of Tonga want it, then it should happen. We don’t try to express an opinion, this is the Government of Tonga’s business.
Kerr: That is very direct domestic politics, but I don’t think there is any harm in disclosing that the Prime Minister made it very plain that they were committed to the reform process. As well as the Foreign Minister. We had a meeting with NGOs today so there is a high level of expectation that the reform process will be completed. There is said to be a roadmap, and we were assured that the roadmap would be complied with. Its not our roadmap, it’s the roadmap of the Government of Tonga and they have done that after consultation. So, we hope and we want it to be successful, because we want a stable and successful Tonga
Pesi Fonua: Yes, that’s domestic politics. One thing that we sort of query ourselves is that government hold a referendum on this issue and we don’t think it’s a request for democracy. It should be a referendum.
McMullan: If there is a demand for that it will be resolved by the domestic political process (of Tonga). What we said to the non-governmental organizations today was Australia’s position in every country in the world is simple “we support democracy and the more democracy the better.” How it happens, who does it, what the process is, what the outcome and structures are – that’s a matter for the individual countries. We have the same position in the United States as we have in Tonga as we have, where it is controversial in, Hong Kong. If there is a democratic option we support it, but it is not our business to interfere.
Kerr: We can’t micro manage this but we can, and have, and did show our support for the reform process because it fits with the objectives that we have. That is a move towards a greater democracy, broadening the franchise and we would hope that the process is done in a way which is consistent with the strength of civil society and stability, because nobody wants to repeat, certainly I think nobody in this room wants a repeat of the events that happened just a little while ago. That would be terrible. These are domestic choices. We have been told by the government that they are committed to that outcome and we have heard from civil society that they want that outcome and they are anxious to see that facilitated. We could only be well-intentioned facilitators of initiatives that come properly from national governments. And there we stand ready to assist in any way that is helpful through that process.
Pesi Fonua: I think that is really all I have to ask. I am just wondering about, well I think it is obvious what is happening in the Pacific, particularly Tonga, is that we are really trying to move forward with all this economic reform and all this kind of stuff, but it is falling behind in governance.
McMullan: You’ve got to hit the nail on the head. You’ve got to proceed on all fronts at once. You’ve got to get your economic reform, you’ve got to get your political reform, you’ve got to get your public administration and your governance. But take people with you, have a social reform so that the benefits are shared. If you don’t do all of those things, potentially, it will emerge somewhere inside the system, its not a particularly Tonga issue. It’s true for every developing country in the world.
Kerr: Otherwise we wouldn’t have had a change of government in Australia.
McMullan: The challenges are not all that different, but what you said is a correct assessment of a development challenge and it’s hard.
Media inquiries: Mr Kerr's office - 02 6277 4991